30th Sep2011

Tekken 6 – Just Frame Natural Combos

by Rip

CONTEST CLOSED! Winner will be notified by email! Aside from the typical just frame moves in the game, there are apparently other just frame combos. Kane has just posted a video showing Lili connecting her b+2,1 into backturned 1,2. From his testing it seems that it only works on a limited amount of characters. More interesting to me is that its done by delaying the second hit of b+2,1. The strange part of course is that it doesn’t seem to change the frame data or else it would work on a lot more characters right? He also linked me to a Baek example that shows many strings that are guaranteed when delayed correctly.

So why does this work? Best explanation/response in the comments gets a high five and a free LUYG iPhone app (contest ends October 5th. Approximate grand prize value $0.99!!!):

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18 comments
turtleneck
turtleneck

noob thought: wonder if delaying 10 strings, or part of them, will make them nc.

noodalls
noodalls

And on yet further reflection, I wonder if the point of the delay is to allow adequate hitback to space out properly for the second hit to connect late.

Rip
Rip

Ah yes, now I remember my other interesting test case. Lili v Lars. Position reset - whiff b+2, delay 1 ~ bt 1 works on very late delay. Position reset - whiff b+2, no delay 1 ~ bt 1 never works. I just looked at this some more, and with/without delay (on first hit whiff) the spacing between characters seems to change (looking at PSP practice mode grid). So that obviously is going to change when the bt 1 is going to reach their hitbox. Makes me wonder how many other delayable moves have similar properties

noodalls
noodalls

So against Marduk, if the second input is delayed until F23, it will hit on F43, and give +8 frames, which is the same as the initiation of BT 1 (i8). Therefore it will combo, there is no need to be precise on the timing of the BT 1, as it will buffer (i.e. 6 frames to hit it.) I didn't end up seeing if you can input it any earlier than this, but any later and the b+2,1 won't combo (input on F26 is outside the input window.) Against Feng, inputting the second command on F23 will hit on F42 (probably the earlier of the hit frames) and therefore only give +7, so no combo.

noodalls
noodalls

You had a frame data party and I wasn't invited? Will have a look at this when I can. Already have the app, so not jealous someone else got it.

Rip
Rip

Yeah, this is going to be very hard to figure out. Something slightly separate but related.. whiff b+2 delay 1 makes it much easier to get the follow up bt 1, but still not guaranteed on all characters. Which leads me to believe that frame data is different for this delayed attack. However Im not seeing how/why whiffing the first part of it makes it so much easier.

noodalls
noodalls

Whiffing probably makes it easier to get further away, and therefore hit with the later hit frames, whereas when the b+2 has connected, only Marduk will be hit from sufficiently far away on axis in order to be at the right distance for a late hitting second hit.

L_Z_N
L_Z_N

Kane delayed the string, so Lili's 2nd hit of b+2,1...could hit at a certain frame. Making it hit at that certain frame...caused the 2nd hit, to probably hit Marduk at its latest active frame....and later gave Lili just barely enough frame advantage, to make the BT 1,2 hit. Lili probably received +8, when 2nd hit of b+2<1 hit Marduk very late. At AvoidingThePuddle, BT 1 is i8. Maybe that's why BT 1,2 hit. Maybe b+2,1 is written as +7 on hit...because that's what they got, while examining the move hitting, but not hitting at its latest active frame(which I think happens often). When he executed b+1,2 faster....it was harder to cause the 2nd hit, hit Marduk very late...and get enough frame advantage. Why Marduk?? Probably because he was the only 1 out of the 3 characters, whose hitbox..or whatever...big enough to be reached by Lili's BT 1...at it's earliest frame of impact.....That is after Lili received enough frame advantage from b+2<1. Why it only hit Feng & Lars while they were off axis?? I assume, they needed an extra frame or two.....to align themselves and block...after being hit by b+2<1 from the sides. In other words Lili got enough frame advantage, to cause BT 1 to hit when they were off axis.

Mohan Murali
Mohan Murali

I think you are hitting by taking a side step... so all four hits are connecting b2<1 was delayed just enough to still combo.

Kane
Kane

+ frame moves don't stack. the moment they get hit, they begin the next hit stun animation ... it doesn't change the later / earlier you do it

MYK
MYK

I can just say how it works. b2<1 was delayed just enough to still combo, but still it hits soo much later she gets more +frames on hit, allowing for a free bt12. No big.

Damajer
Damajer

Some people say that back turned jabs for Lili are 8frames. If you get 1frame advantage for delaying the b2,1b at the right time, you should be at +8 and get those free jabs. I think thats what it is.

Rip
Rip

Its not that simple though. Because if hitting later gave her more +frames it should be guaranteed on all characters, no?

centaur of gravity
centaur of gravity

In which case it wouldnt be a just-frame-combo though. It just means you gotta delay the hit long enough to not be part of the string but be faster than the opponents recovery. Like imagine you could hit a move that gets you to +11. It would mean your 10f jab would be free afterwards. That might be whats happening here, in a way smaller frame scale.

centaur of gravity
centaur of gravity

I personally think that its not actual a "natural combo". By delaying the last hit its not a combo anymore but a combo + 1 seperate hit. Like by doing the combo the usual way, the last hit gets blockable because its a part of the full string but set to be blockable by the game, so to say. But if you delay it slightly it hits because youre still at huge frame advantage from hitting the previous attacks and since its part of a string it only takes minimal frames to come out anyway. But if you do it too fast the game registers it as one "string" instead of a string + 1 seperate hit. Thats just my guess though. If I was correct though this would be possible with other string heavy fighters too.

Dragonfangs
Dragonfangs

This seems to be because of the reel (getting hit) animation slightly altering the dummy's hitbox. Which would cause the attack to whiff one or more of it's active frames and thus actually getting more frame advantage. This isn't that uncommon in 2D games like SF4. There are a few characters that have infinites using this: Abel, Chun and Dudley I think.

Rip
Rip

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